LaserSoft Imaging

Hello there!

In this question I am trying to understand the nature of colors in scanning cross-processed films. I've thought that I'm okay with photoshop, with subtractive and additive colors etc etc etc, but somehow there is (at least one thing that I can't get. So,

First image is the result of the lab scanner (some kinda expensive Kodak film scanner). The colors are simply great: vivid and orthogonal:


The contrast is so-so, that's why I've tried to re-scan the image with my home Epson V700 scanner and standard Epson Scan software. You can see the result on image N2:


The details are finer, but the colors are way pale. I bet this is not the saturation only, since there is much less blue then on the lab scan. I've tried to recreate the lab results in photoshop (image N3), but with a very limited success: the blue is still not there:


I know that I use the simplest program, lots of people referred me to SilverFast LaserSoft telling that this sophisticated software would help me to get the results. I consider to purchase the full studio edition, but first I would like to understand if my problem will be solved. In other words what happens in the LaserSoft software, what is that function that allows to get those way different colors? Or, why the lab scanner is capable to reproduce the colors so vividly? And also, meanwhile, what can I do (in Epson Scan or in Photoshop) to get closer to the results from the lab (simply adding the blue/cyan filter and darkening the exposure doesn't provide satisfying results: first, the brightest sky remain pale/white, second yellows will be dramatically affected)?

Appreciate your answer!

PS: also, tried to ask the same question on some other forums including this one (http://photo.stackexchange.com/question ... t-so-vivid), got 4 points/upvotes but no one seems to be able to answer, so I guess here is my last bastion

Hi there,

The picture is overexposed. Make sure you turn down a bit the exposure until the sky (or the guy's cheeks) are not burnt anymore.

Cheers

Hello Alejandro and thanks for your fast reply. I can certainly see what you mean. However, as I've wrote above: simply adding the blue/cyan filter and darkening the exposure doesn't provide satisfying results: first, the brightest sky remain pale/white, second yellows will be dramatically affected. Do you still think that tweaking the exposure only will solve the problem? I re-ask because the color of the scanned image still looks very different to me.

Hi there,

The tweaking should be made before scanning (in other words made in your scanning software and not in photoshop). Once you do an overexposed scanning you will not be able to recover information which is not contained in the file (remember that information is just in the picture and in your mind but not in the scanned file which you overexposed).

Cheers

Yes, I understand that Photoshop manipulates with the information which is on scan (and not on the film itself). However I think that I need to do something during the scan which is not only darkening the exposure. I will go your way: will re-scan the frame and will post the result, we'll take it from here. Thanks again!

Hello again!

Well, tried to scan:


And here it is after the photoshop:


As you can see, the colors are not even closer to the lab scanner Which tool am I missing, please? What do I need to know to correct the colors while scanning (preferred)/photoshopping? Also, kindly explain, will LaserSoft perform better and why?

Hello there,

I see the three images you have posted in your last message, the last one definitely has a little more intensity and the colors look a bit different, the last one has a bit more intensity in the red channel.

It is not clear which is the one you want to have.

To find out what exactly your picture really look like, I can only recommend creating an unmodified raw file (48 bit). In SilverFast this is the 48 bit HDR scan mode.

Then open the file in you editing program adjust the gamma to that of your system to see an approximation of the color you have in the emulsion.

Nobody knows what the person who scanned the pics in the lab might have corrected, replicating this would be more or less possible for that operator. Hence is better starting off by having a raw scan of the picture.

What kind of cross process is this? Is it positive or negative? Is it on film or are you starting from prints?

breakphreak wrote:As you can see, the colors are not even closer to the lab scanner Which tool am I missing, please?

Its hard to tell, which tools are you using? which steps did you take?

breakphreak wrote:What do I need to know to correct the colors while scanning (preferred)/photoshopping? Also, kindly explain, will LaserSoft perform better and why?

To replicate the colors of the lab, you would have to know what the operator did while scanning (the idea is to try to recreate very similar conditions to those by the the time of the first sccan). The first difference you have to cope with is the scanner itself, not all of them have the same response, quality, light color, etc.
Having the same source is also crucial, if you are scanning from prints and the lab did it from a negative, there is already a big difference because paper prints have a much smaller color spectrum than the film itself.

Lets asume you are also scanning the emulsion itself. The fidelity will then be obtained by creating a raw file, it means the image has not being touched by any automatic correction tool included in the scanning software. The file should also be a 48 bit image (16 bit per channel) which will give you more information per color channel (this is big a advantage). The next problem is that this type of color depth can not be displayed by your monitor (computer monitors can only show 8 bit for every channel and some really expensive monitors can show up to 10 bits which is still way less than your file).

You must be aware of this take advantage during the conversion to 8 bits per channel without loosing any details in the process, on the contrary by recovering details you might have in dark areas while keeping the lightest areas controlled.

SilverFast has a set of tools to assist you either if you prefer to do your correction before scanning or if you want to create a raw file. AACO, Selective Color Correction and Multi-Exposure and very useful. Rescuing details in dark areas is the strength of AACO, Multi-Exposure increases the dynamic range and help reduce the digital image noise and Selective Color Correction give a very detail and precise level of control and corrections.

The best thing I can recommend is to download the demo version and give it a try, that is the best way you can find out if the tools are right for you, how easy is for you to get the results you want.

Kind regards.

Thank you Alejandro for a brief and elaborative answer. Yes, your assumptions are right: I am scanning from the film itself (this is my film). The film is some Kodak cross-processed slide film (transparency film developed with C41 process). The program is automatic 48-bit scan of Epson Scan. There was a mess in the uploaded pictures: first is the direct result from my scanner, second is my not successful photoshop color fix.

I think you are right (again): I will try to download the trial version of the HDR studio to see if it serves good my needs. I'd really like to buy any kind of software that will allow me to concentrate less on technical aspects (though I do understand them, but they are time-consuming) and dedicate more time to photography itself. I also will try to work with an unmodified RAW file as well. By your permission, I will inform you about the results in this thread.

I must admit that I've got charming results (exposure fixed 1 stop down, color profile "kodak <other>":


Now the question is what function makes the LaserSoft software results so "special"? I know, in x-pro there are no "right" and "wrong" colors, maybe with this particular film it's just a good luck (I guess not). Any comments I can learn from will be blessed.

PS: couldn't try the multi exposure settings (unavailable in the demo version). anyways this is the biggest image size I could get - so can't tell really what happens in the dark details.

Hi breakphreak

breakphreak wrote:Now the question is what function makes the LaserSoft software results so "special"? I know, in x-pro there are no "right" and "wrong" colors, maybe with this particular film it's just a good luck (I guess not). Any comments I can learn from will be blessed.

That is correct, since there is no standard response curve in cross processing, it was probably a of bit of luck combined with the superb orange masking detection in SilverFast.

breakphreak wrote:PS: couldn't try the multi exposure settings (unavailable in the demo version). anyways this is the biggest image size I could get - so can't tell really what happens in the dark details.

Multi-Exposure is only available for scanners that support this feature in transparency mode (even in demo mode), it is the button that looks like sun located at the left side of the preview window.

Images can be enlarged by moving the resolution slider to the right

Best regards

http://www.silverfast.com/product/Epson/532/en.html

thanks for your comments
my scanner (epson) is supposed to support ME functionality

I'll try it as well (For completeness)

Dear breakphreak

Multi-Exposure should then be available. Please make sure you double check for the button indicated in my last email.

Please be ware that Multi-Exposure has an influence on negative stripes because of the orage mask. Film colors might change a bit

Cheers

In fact, this particular case is about cross-processed film (which is slide film, developed with C41). Slide film doesn't have an orange mask So, this is more about the response curve (still, would like to know about it a bit more). I will look for the right button. Also, I am a bit confused - there are so many version of LaserSoft, the features can't be easily compared one-to-one. As a piggyback question, whom can I email to understand which version is better for me?

Dear Breakphreak

breakphreak wrote:In fact, this particular case is about cross-processed film (which is slide film, developed with C41). Slide film doesn't have an orange mask So, this is more about the response curve (still, would like to know about it a bit more). I will look for the right button.

Ok then it should not be much of a problem using Multi-Exposure

breakphreak wrote:Also, I am a bit confused - there are so many version of LaserSoft, the features can't be easily compared one-to-one. As a piggyback question, whom can I email to understand which version is better for me?

A comparison table can be found here: http://www.silverfast.com/comparison/scanner/en.html

When starting the demo version you are also warned of the features that would be blocked with the smaller versions.


Cheers