RGB-colourspaces with Nikon hardware Adobe or ECI

[Ogando]

What is suggested to be the best Colourspace working on Nikon Hardware (LS 8000)?

Im curious to get a few concrete informations by the very well informed specialists around here.

The destiny: To be connected as close as possible to the hardware (like with a Guitar-pickup to the PA and not with a Mike...)

Adobe RGB (1998) or Adobe RGB 1998.icc (just the same?) is offered by SilverFast and Nikon Scan. It?s universal, usefull and extended everywhere all over the world since Photoshop 6, or still named as SMPTE 240-M with Photoshop 5.

It?s not possible to choose ECI-RGB wether in SilverFast nor in NikonScan.

The fact it?s not installed in SilverFast has something to do with the indirect hardwarecommunication to Nikon?

Does NTSC 1953 result so similar to ECI-RGB (apart from the Gamma fixed on 2.2 instaed of 1.8 and xxx mini-details...) that it remains the same using NTSC 1953 instead of ECI-RGB?

Even the original Gamma of Adobe RGB is located on 2.2, which is easy to simulate by the workflow on 1.8 (D50-calibration of the Mointor, coordination of the Colour Space?s natural Gamma to the Monitor?s Gamma by the Graphic-Card?s /Profile-Connection-Space and look-up-table for a local simulation in the profiled Monitor, coordination of the Colour Settings in the Scan-Software with the Colour Settings in Photoshop). Does it makes any difference at all, wether using Adobe RGB 1998 or NTSC 1953, if I like to have best medianeutral files for printing-processes of all kind?

It?s possible to load ECI-RGB extra to the Colorsync-Folder and to use it this way (more indirectly?) even in SilverFast (not instead of the scanner profile).
Is this way less recommendable than to work in Adobe RGB and convert to ECI-RGB later in case of special need (that little bit difference "across the neighbouhood") ?

Perhaps some other important details belonging to the hardwarecommunication working in SilverFast with Negative direct-Mode or IT8 Kalibration for transperancies?

ECI-RGB from European-Colour-Initiative is highly recommended actually, but less extended outside some big printing houses, even in Europe. Please correct me, my personal expierence is ECI-RGB maybe a Colourspace with relatively high risk to be ignored by advertising agencies and graphic-designers?

At last: what?s philosophy, what?s reality?

King regards from Ogando _ Cologne

[LSI_Rossee]

Dear Ogando.

Welcome to our Imaging Forum. I am actually grateful for this topic since many users might have asked themselves this question. I am not sure though whether my answer will bring you closer to your destiny since you would like to be as close as possible to the hardware. The best colorspace for this purpose would be the scanner profile itself. In the follwing graph you can see the three gammuts: ECI-RGB (green wire), AdobeRGB (red) and my LS-8000 input profile (blue)


In my opinion the best approach for this would be the destiny of your output target. The ECI-RGB profile was developed as the "communication gammut" for colormetric defined RGB by the European Color Initiative (www.eci.org) with certain parameters established in detail --> e.g. Gamma 1.8, color temperature =D50. Gamma 1.8 is closer to ISO - ICC profiles for CMYK offset printing based on ISO 12647-2 published by the ECI in March 2004. AdobeRGB is Gamma 2.2 and D65. In practical terms it means that you will suffer less "color casualties" / losses when converting into ISO coming from ECI-RGB than from AdobeRGB. Iit is not a question of philosophy and reality, fish or meat, ECI or Adobe. It is a question of your workflow, the according parameters before and after your RGB workspace and needs to be determined on the output target.
My experience has shown that ECI-RGB and ISO for offset are well extended outside Europe, even all the way to Asia.
BTW it is possible to choose ECI-RGB in SilverFast as the internal profile as well as the ISO offset profile as your Plug&Play CMYK destination profile.

The user has all necessary settings in ONE dialogue and "realtime" numbers and values in his tone and gradiation parameters as well as softproof functionalitiy when clicking the 4c-button in the densitometer.
I would be very interested in Feedback from all forum users about this workflow in Silverfast.

Best regards.

[Ogando]

Dear Jan-W. Rossee,
thanks a lot for your detailed request. I think the lack of communication has been that the ECI- RGB -Profile is not installed automaticlly with the SilverFast Installation, like the Nikon Profiles with Nikon Scan.

I had chance to notice this, because ECI-RGB in my workflow is not added permanently to the System-Folder?s Colour-Sync Folder.
This is not neccessary to activate ECI-RGB (and other special custom-profiles created by Printing-houses) inside of Photoshop.
Moving ECI-RGB into this special place suddenly I have the option to choose it internal SilverFast. Thank you for clearing up this misunderstanding.

Taking into account that SilverFast is member in www.eci.org I was discussing with collegues the other day, why ECI-RGB is not part of the SilverFast Basic Installation and if this might have something to do with the Nikon hardware, considering that Nikon Scan4 doesn?t offer ECI-RGB as well, although it?s well extended even all the way to Asia, as you said.

According to your screenshot with P&P CMYK and isocoated.icc:

In my workflow I change only to P&P CMYK
(in the SilverFast Options CMS-dialogue Internal>Output)
to have the possibility to choose the isocoated.icc-Profile as general profile
for the CMYK-Preview in the Densitometer, that I?m using constantly all the time.
I hope this is what you mean with "4c button".
If you don?t agree, please tell me the better alternative.
Specially the <sum> is very usefull. For or me its more concrete to observe c5m3y4 for white and c not getting smaller than 3 overall in the highlights, than running RGB-numbers. As well the character of black for me it?s easier to identify.
I think Isocoated.icc is a good universal CMYK-Colour-space, not too small.

Then I change back to RGB in Internal>Output.
By this way I try to get medianeutral RGB-files suitable for CMYK.
I use CMYK profiles in general only for very concrete needs.
Often enough I have to choose elder ones according to some "house-workflows". Still they are mor extended, than we like to believe.
So I save the file in RGB having done a control of the CMYK-colours to be expected - more or less- inside SilverFast.
Then I optimize the file just a little, little bit in Phhotoshop doing the ultimate adjustements using the Softproof-function with the concrete CMYK-Profile-Preview.
I add a screenshot of my Coloursettings in Photoshop, containing specially the Rendering Intent and the CMM (using other settings in this two points you get other Colour-numbers but no warning message opening the file). This way seems to be more secure to me.
But always I try to deliver in RGB if possible.
In the end I use RGB to storage files of course I keep the cmyks too.

The CMYK-Profiles are optimized, modified and discussed all the time, as we know, that we?re following the eci transmedia list... I would like to add an aspect of real comedy by the way: I?m not shure if our customers wouldn?t get a bit nervous, realizing, that the "new security by colourmanagement " - complex enough- is just a work in progress ... No doubt: I value this way of discussing the facts democraticly.

Best regards Ogando

[LSI_Rossee]

Dear Ogando.

By placing aliases into the system?s ColorSync folder you can keep your profiles at the original location. SilverFast wil recognize the alias and make the profile available in the CMS options.
Your point about implementing the ECI profiles into the basic SilverFast Installation is very valid and is being discussed at the moment.
From our point of view the lack of the profiles until now is not related to Nikon Hardware or others. Thanks to users and our Imaging Forum we can receive these valuable requests.
So far we are offering CMYK output profiles for download on our website --> https://www.silverfast.com/show/cmyk/en.html

The 4c button is the little icon next to the zoom window in the Densitometer. Clicking on it will activate the 4c- Softproof.



BTW apple+click or right click on the process button gives a more comfortable way of choosing the different settings.

Delivering your files in RGB is probably the best solution, after all a photographer already has to be genuine allrounder in many competence fields - photography, design, graphics, physics, digital-imaging, psychology and even philosophy sometimes . Prepress shouldn?t be mandatory. Many of your colleagues do see the need and oppurtunity in delivering a visualisation (Digiproof+ Fogra Media Wedge) of the CMYK targeted output along with their medianeutral RGB files.
I am very curious whether PDF/X3 as Standard file exchange format is in the discussion between your colleagues. Do you see an oppurtunity here in delivering medianeutral RGB files with defined output intent?

Best regards.

[Ogando]

Dear Jan-W. Rossee,
thank you for the tip how to use the 4c button. Very easy and comfortable. I use the Softproof-Function specially in SilverFast HDR when I have to convert pictures with difficult colours into CMYK as for example nightblue or extreme green-tones. In these situations its more comfortable to use the P&P CMYK in SilverFast (nearly no User-error possible), than the Softproof-Function in Photoshop - and you don?t get afraid, when there?s a need of strong compensation of colour-saturations.

Normally I use only the colour-preview-slot in the densitometer, which indicates as well the expected differences in CMYK.

As a User somestimes I?m not shure if SilverFast looks into his own Prefs, into the System?s Colour-Syn-Folder or into the Coloursettings of Photoshop, if SilverFast doesn?t tell it to me, like while coordinating the Monitor-Photoshop-SilverFast-correspondance -a clear thing. For example: The P&P Profile Isocoated is chosen but not active, while I?m scanning RGB with an RGB-Profile to be embedded. What Densitometer-numbers of CMYK do I really get, when I?m working in RGB with simple CMYK-Preview in the Densitometer? The ones from the Isocoated-Profile (although P&P is not active), or from the chosen Euroscale coated v2 in the Coloursettings of Photoshop?

According to your question with PDF/X3
PDF/X3 still is not in discussion among my colleagues. I think, because it seems to be complicated and its not popular at all. I will see what Olaf Druemmer will tell about it at the Adobe Summer school... It could be a soultion to avoid all these conflicts in wrong opening of profiled files. But the first step should be, that the ability of delivering first class corrected picture-files would become more evident among the colleagues. For many of them its too early to use PDF/X3 themselves I think. A specialist in Prepress-processes I know, has to deal with so many faults (and hidden faults, even using different program-versions) in pdf-files every day, when they aren?t written with a lot of special experience. To answer your question: I?m curious but cautious entering new spaces.

Best regards Ogando

[Ogando]

Ok, I found two small sentences in the new manual Page 343, 177 - a little bit hidden between the lines....

This would help to identify the origen of Colournumbers in the Densitometer: One of these very helpful Info-Sentences at the Bottom of the frame, as: "Your Densitometer indicates your CMYK activated by PS", "Your Densitometer indicates your CMYK activated by SF?s P&P CMYK"
if I may suggest something...

Actually not only me is getting confused easliy in the voluminous details of the complex SilverFast-world.

If you don?t have to load Isocoated.icc to the systems Colour-Sync Folder to activate P&P but you have to load ECI-RGB into it to use it inside SF.....

Best regards and a nice summer Ogando