PowerLook 3000, IT8 & DOR Scan

[adagency]

IT8 caliraition works great but for one exception.
Scanning with a Umax PowerLook 3000 and SilverFast AI 5.5 in the DOR mode (transparency or reflective) deactivates the calibration.
To calibrate these areas of the scanner bed in Hi-Res mode one would need smaller calibration targets ie. 35mm for the transparency and for reflective mode a target of no more than 85mm wide.
In my package I received no such targets only the standard sizes. Why?

[Stefan]

How large is your target?The one I got does fit(it`s 4/5 inch) in the DOR area,but I have to turn it 90?.And then I also turn the preview 90?.This procedure works,although I realized it just some days ago,that`s why I already bought a 35 mm target.But if you calibrate the DOR area,please don`t use this calibration for the bigger area,as the powerlook then uses other lenses,that definitly produce different colors.You can try this by scanning the same slide in both modes with equal settings.You will get different colors.Unfortunately you cannot save two different calibrations for tranparencies and tow for reflectives.
Stefan

[adagency]

The target will fit sideways as well but I read somewhere that one was not to turn them under any circumstances. I think that circumstnce has just been defined to me by you, thanks.

I am a novice I must admit with SilverFast. I have used only Umax MagicScan till now with the PL3000, but am I correct in noticing while toggling between the optical resolution and scan resoluton that one can scan in the transparent or reflective modes up to 3048dpi opticaly with out having to go into DOR or DOR2 mode? If so what are the DOR modes for?

[Stefan]

It also seemed to be logical to me not to turn them,because the reference points wouldn`t fit then.I just tried it out.Maybe it worked,because I also turned the preview,I don`t know exactely,but it does work.Does it work for you,too?
As to the DOR mode,you are right,you can scan up to 6096 dpi with or without DOR.But if you use DOR,the Powerlook 3000 uses its second(high resolution) lens system.So you can get true optical 3048dpi.If you go to 6096,it will only get this resolution by interpolation.But if you don`t use DOR,interpolation takes place as you go over 1200 dpi,so 1200 dpi is the highest true optical resolution without DOR.So whenever possible use DOR.You will get sharper images.
Stefan

[adagency]

No I haven't tried turning the target yet. I'm trying not to handle them too much.
As to the Dual lens theme do you mean to say that 3048 dpi optical resolution is only available in DOR mode and without the DOR mode it interpolates to 3048 dpi? Are you sure if this is true, if so then trust-worthy calibration with it8 is useless in DOR mode!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: adagency on 2001-08-31 22:35 ]</font>

[Stefan]

Yes,I am sure.Without DOR it interpolates every resolution higher than 1200dpi.But this has nothing to do with IT8 calibration.But you will have to decide,wether to calibrate in DOR or normal mode,unfortunately.(I already posted this to the "wishlist" in this forum.)Of course you can calibrate i.e. reflective in normal mode and tranparency in DOR mode.

[Stefan]

If you are not in DOR mode,you are able to scan the complete area of the scanner.(You also see a much larger preview area)The Powerlook 3000,as you will know,is not able to scan its whole area with 3048 optical dpi.Only in the middle area it can scan true 3048 dpi.If you switch to DOR,your preview will only show this middle area,the socalled "hires" area.

[adagency]

I realise now I wasn't thinking straight. Too much colour in my brain. I must say though that the MagicScan Software from the Dual-Lens side of it was a little more straight forward.
Back to the calibration of DOR?
?at the moment I have only calibrated the normal transparent mode (not worried too much about reflective just now) and calibration is as indicated "ON". DOR is not calibrated and is indicated as "OFF". Now don't get me wrong and think I'm a bit stubborn or thick but I really want to get to the bottom of this, if I now turn the transparent target 90? and the preview accordingly and calibrate will it not make a third preference profile?

By the way Stefan, you seem to be preety handy with Silverfast answer me this if you can?
?in the "CMS" tab > "Color Management" I have selected as "Internal Monitor" ColorSync which in Colorsync is referenced to my calibrated monitor and under "Profiles for ColorSync" I have selected for "Internal" my calibrated monitor, this gives me the most faithful colours but surely if my RGB Default in Colorsync and PhotoShop 6 is AdobeRGB surely I should select this profile for "Internal" but if i do the colours are far too saturated.

Hope it's not getting too complicated!

By the way do you live online too?

Andy

advertising@ad.agency.org

[Stefan]

If you turn the target 90? and also the preview you will really get a second(not third,why third) profile,which of course you could use then.But unfortunately(I?m sure to 99%) it overwrites the profile that you made before.As far as I know,you can only store one profile for trans and one for reflective.That`s really annoying,I know.As to the second issue,I already realized that the colors get too saturated,if you choose Adobe RGB in SF as ?Internal".
Since this is really a strange behaviour(but a fact),I can only guess,why it is this way.Maybe you know the difference between ?convert to profile" and ?assign profile" in Photoshop 6.If you convert to a profile you keep the colors and change the values of the colors.If you ?assign" a profile,you change the colors while keeping the color values.Now,what I assume is,that SF assigns a profile,that would mean that the colorsvalues given by the scanner won`t be changed,but the color would be changed,in the case of Adobe RGB would get more saturated.
I don`t know for sure,wether it really works this way,and if it does I don`t get the logic behind this.But it is the only way,I can explain it to myself (and to you).Maybe Ian can tell us more.By the way I don`t live online,because I can`t afford the cost.But this forum is really interesting and it`s fun to discuss this technical stuff.
Where are you from,by the way?In my country(Germany) it`s `round midnight,that`s why I will answer(if you want me to) not before tomorrow.
Good night

[adagency]

In Salzburg Austria working late.
Luckily I am on a "Standleitung" fiberoptic and only pay monthly the flat rate.

[adagency]

A third profile is produced when calibrating DOR it also uses the same profile for DOR2.
After calibrating normal reflective mode which produced it's profile called "SF_R (UMAX PowerLook 3000)" I then went on to calibrate DOR as you explained turning the target 90? and the preview respectivly it produced a profile called "SF_1 (UMAX PowerLook 3000)". Then I went into normal transparency mode and calibrated again and it produced yet again a profile, the standard transparent profile called "SF_T (UMAX PowerLook 3000)".
Under CMS tab when one chooses "Scanner Internal > Calibration" it recognises all 3 profiles and seem to be active respectivly as one toggles between Reflective, Transparent and DOR/DOR2 Transparent.
Wether or not the DOR colours are correct I cannot say as it is late and I am going home to bed, but they seem to accurate from the preview.

Last minute thought?
Still there should be a 35mm slide available in the price for the it8 Silverfast for Umax PL3000.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: adagency on 2001-09-01 02:53 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: adagency on 2001-09-01 16:24 ]</font>

[Stefan]

Hi Andy,I got some problems to understand your post."After calibrating normal reflective mode which produced it's profile called SF_T".I mean the profile should be called SF_R(reflective mode).
?Then I went into normal transparency mode and calibrated again and it produced yet again a profile, the standard transparent profile called "SF_1 (UMAX PowerLook 3000)"."(This should be named SF_T).
I spent a couple of hours to find out how it seems to work.It`s really amazing:Most of the questions,that you are asking me,have I already been asking myself when I bought SF 5.0 1 ? years ago.And I didn`t search long enough to find the anwers then.But now I guess I found at least some of them.
As far as you found out now,it is obviousely really possible to calibrate DOR and normal mode seperately(for trans,I didn`t check reflective yet).When doing this calibration,SF_1 seems to be the profile for DOR trans and SF_T is the profile for the normal trans mode.DOR and DOR2 both use the same profile,what makes sense.
As to the story with the working spaces again I also made some tests.I found out,that the bigger the working space is,that you choose,the more saturated the colors will get.(tried SRGB,Adobe RGB,Wide Gamut).But not only the colors get more saturated,also(what I didn`t expect) the color values(checked in PS 6.01) change.Adobe RGB and Wide Gamut nearly had the same values,but different colors,while SRGB had different colors AND totally different values.This behaviour seems to be a mixture of PS 6`s ?assign profile" and ?convert profile".
Somehow it goes beyond my understanding and I really would like to get IAN`s or the President_LSI`s opinion.
What I would like to see would be a possibility to choose different working spaces in SF WITHOUT changing the colors(at least as an option).This would be corresponding to"assign profile" in PS 6

[adagency]

Sefan. Sorry about the typo's in my last message but it was about 1am in the morning and I was not thinking straight, I have edited the message and it is now correct. Sorry to confuse any body.
I presume that you have now produced your own " "SF_1 (UMAX PowerLook 3000)" for DOR/DOR2 and realised one can run at least 3 profiles as long as under CMS "Scanner Internal > Calibration" is chosen.
My Reflective target is far too large even if turned 90? to produce a Reflective DOR profile but I must admit I have never need the Hi-Power Lens in reflective mode any way but that is far from the point.
I think I understand what you are saying about the colour space issue. But I can produce a near exact replica on screen as the original by choosing my calibrated monitor under "Profiles for ColorSync -> Internal" even though as far as I can understand, it should be my PhotoShop 6 RGB which is "Adobe RGB 1998" same as in the Colorsync control panel. Wierd eh!!
You are using a PC as I understand does it run the same ColoSync standard as Apple?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: adagency on 2001-09-01 16:43 ]</font>

[ilyons]

As to the story with the working spaces again I also made some tests.I found out,that the bigger the working space is, that you choose, the more saturated the colors will get.(tried SRGB,Adobe RGB,Wide Gamut).But not only the colors get more saturated,also(what I didn`t expect) the color values(checked in PS 6.01) change.Adobe RGB and Wide Gamut nearly had the same values,but different colors,while SRGB had different colors AND totally different values.This behaviour seems to be a mixture of PS 6`s ?assign profile" and ?convert profile".
Somehow it goes beyond my understanding and I really would like to get IAN`s or the President_LSI`s opinion.
What I would like to see would be a possibility to choose different working spaces in SF WITHOUT changing the colors(at least as an option).This would be corresponding to"assign profile" in PS 6

I can't comment on the Umax unit, as I have absolutely no experience of it.

The increasing degree of saturation as you get ever-wider colour spaces is normal. The saturation increases as you move further out from the centre (white point). The Hue is the perimeter of the colour space. Obviously the wider the colour space the further its perimeter is from the centre and so a point on the perimeter of sRGB will be MUCH closer to the centre and thus less saturated than say Adobe RGB or Wide Gamut RGB.

I'm not sure if I follow your requirements regarding the choice of working spaces without changing the colours. A feature exists at least in the Polaroid version and I assume all other versions that will allow you to do something along the lines I think you require. You need to set both the ?Scanner Internal? and ?Scanner Profile? to ?None?. ?Internal Monitor? needs to be set to ?Automatic? and ?Internal? to the desired working space profile. So far as I can see this can be just about any working space profile you like. Since we have not defined a source profile then conversion from one colour space to another is impossible ? we simply embed (or assign) the working space profile. Normally ?Assigning? a profile causes the appearance of the image to change but since this assumes VERY different gamut?s and probably poorly behaved devices we shouldn?t see a significant change when using the typical well behaved working space profile (there are limits).


A full blown equal of assign profile is avaiable in SilverFast now - but there is no way of selecting a working space only a scanner or digicam profile. You simply set the ?Scanner Internal? to "None" and choose your device profile in "Scanner (Reflective/Transparent)". When the image opens in PS6 the profile mismatch warning dialog will flag a difference, but if you allow the image to open without conversion PS6 will ensure the image displays correctly. To be honest I think you are making a rod to break your own back with.

Ian


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ilyons on 2001-09-01 17:15 ]</font>

[adagency]

Hi and thanks for your comments. I think I have sussed it at last after your explanation, after all I am only a Graphic Designer trying to produce a near as posssible match from the it8 Silverfast Software, I am more interested in my design capabilities rather than my ColorSync disabilities.
I have now chosen Calibration in "Scanner -> Internal", None in "Internal Monitor" and my Photoshop/ColorSync profile under "Internal".
I think the "Internal Monitor" selection had thrown me off course all along and did not realise I should set it to NONE. I am now producing colour and saturation which match my originals and that is all I wanted.
Although I must admit I am still not sure what "Internal Monitor" does that it over saturates the images like it does when used in conjunction with "Internal" (does it choose my monitor that is selected in colorSync or what?).
Over and out!