Multiple problems: SF6.6r1a/Nikon8000ED/Intel MacPro/Leopard

[hdinin]

I have been working it seems for months with Tech Support at LSI.

Some problems are straightened (with the judicious application of lots of money). Some remain.

SF6.6r1a simply will not work on a multi-core Intel Mac running Leopard 10.5.x (I am running 10.5.4 -- but this is immaterial) if there are storage devices (hard drives) plugged into the Firewire bus, either internal, external (hubs), or with a 3rd party FW800 extension card (Sonnet Tango). The scanner cannot be seen and will not initialize.

Solution: Install yet another 3rd party extension card into PCI-Express bus of Mac Pro 8-core machine -- Sonnet Tempo SATA e4P and use e-SATA external drives. Scanner now initializes.

However, there are persistent problems, never encountered before using Silverfast software (going back to v.3). After scans are written to file (or seem to be), Photoshop automatically opens and the file is opened in Photoshop. If the file is not saved IN PHOTOSHOP and unless I immediately QUIT PHOTOSHOP, the file will disappear from the disk and the directory. This is random, but frequent. I have wasted about 15 hours now scanning film (negatives and chromes) only to have the files disappear.

Further, often Photoshop will go into infinite loop (spinning rainbow ball) and "Force Quit" does not work on Photoshop. Sometimes, Silverfast will go into infinite loop on attempts to quit it, and it will not "Force Quit."

The machine must be rebooted, with a forced power cycle (holding down the power button until machine shuts down spontaneously). I must reboot in single-user mode, run fsck repeatedly, and then reboot the machine.

Generally, I also then start Silverfast and delete the preferences files from the toolkit in the Launcher.

There seems to be a problem either with Silverfast or with Photoshop, or the two of them together.

I have already removed all Silverfast files -- ALL of them -- and re-installed the software. Same problems are occurring.

Next I will try to re-install Photoshop. However, I have no such problems with the same version of Photoshop CS3 installed on a Mac Book Pro I use in the field.

I have tried repairing permissions, etc.

Short of assistance from this quarter (Silverfast Forums), I will invest in AppleCare, so that I can access Apple Tech Support, for whatever that is worth (Apple is never to blame). It seems "Force Quit" is a totally useless function on this machine. Nothing quits: System Preferences, Photoshop, Silverfast, Time Machine...

My last resort will be to re-install the OS. I don't want to do this as it's an immense pain in the ass afterwards, re-setting all parameters, passwords, serialization of software, activation of software that requires it (Adobe products), etc.

Any ideas out there?

Thanks

Howard

[hdinin]

Replying to my own message with further comments based on further research.

It appears a good working hypothesis is that the culprit is Leopard.

There have been reports on Apple's own forums and discussion boards, and many third-party boards, that machines (both PowerPC, Intel, laptop and tower) running Leopard have been experiencing odd behavior:

- persistent inability to "Force Quit" applications, rendering them, and sometimes the entire system, non-functioning -- and the only remedy is to force a power cycle (holding down the power button until the machine quits, and then cold reboot)
- failure and malfunction of a variety of applications, especially those involving devices connected to the system, especially connected via any port on the serial bus externally (mostly audio, photographic and video equipment is complained about, but it seems likely a scanner would also qualify)
- Apple acknowledges no complicity in these failures or shortcomings in Leopard (which is now in its fifth release since the end of October 2007)
- Nikon has specifically announced no further development of their own scanner software for the Mac beyond Mac OS X version 10.4.x and offers no support on Intel Macintosh machines (which presumably run optimally on Leopard)

As for me, I have also tested the 12GB of memory on my Mac Pro. It appears to be OK. All hard drives check out.

Strangely, though I hasten to add I have no peripheral devices, except for hard drives and a DVD reader/burner, attached, plus an external monitor and an outboard mouse and keyboard, I have no such problems with my Mac Book Pro (17", also Intel Duo Core 2), which is running a similar complement of applications to the Mac Pro -- save for Silverfast.

I suggest we can only hope that Silverfast is applying whatever little persuasion and leverage any third-party developer can on Apple to get their act together and to repair what are obviously some serious flaws in Leopard.

I would say that Macintosh, with a full production grade complement of memory, storage space (internal and external) is no longer a reliable production environment for professional applications. [My Mac Pro, an 8-core, with 2 TB of onboard storage, 12GB of DRAM memory, 3MHz Intel processors, and an additional $500 worth of PCI-express bus extension cards is a $6000 investment -- it has become less reliable than the pre-G5 PowerPC machines I used to use, running Mac OS 9.x, costing significantly less].

Howard

[LSI_Luebker]

Dear Howard,

SilverFast 6.6.0r1a should be working smoothly with all the different Mac models out there as we tested this release extensively before putting it out.
There are some known troubles with certain NIK plugins when running SilverFast from Photoshop. But beside we do not have no problems in Leopard .
Please specify your problem or contact our TechSupport Staff then we can hopefully sort this issue out.


besrt regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

[hdinin]

Thanks Thomas.

As I tried to say, in too many words, the problem seems to be endemic to Leopard, or my specific installation.

However, the specific problems I have with Silverfast are:

- after performing a scan, the image file opens in Photoshop
- whether I manipulate the image or not, if I do a save in Photoshop (<command>-S) AND IF then EITHER Photoshop or Silverfast hangs (spinning rainbow ball cursor), I cannot successfully force quit either Photoshop OR Silverfast
- if I am forced to power down the Mac Pro by pressing the power button on the front panel until shutdown occurs, THE FILE WILL DISAPPEAR from the desktop

The only workaround I have found that is moderately successful is to perform even a single image as a "Batch (File)" scan. This SEEMS to preserve the file on the desktop. Otherwise, the above intervening impediments seems to cause the system to lose the file from the directory, and therefore, for practical purposes, from any subsequent access.

I am sure it is in the voluminous manual for Silverfast, but I haven't found it:

Is there a setting in preferences whereby I can effect to perform scans in Silverfast WITHOUT then having Photoshop automatically boot up and/or open the file just scanned?

In other words, is there a way, other than using "batch" mode, to simply write the scan as a file to the desktop reliably -- irrespective of any subsequent system or application failures? I can always do any necessary Photoshop work later (I do most scans as high-bit HDR scans and I would prefer working on them individually at another work session).

Thanks.

Howard

[LSI_Luebker]

Dear Howard,

of course you can disable this behavior got to general->options->general and untick the "Show image after Scan" box.
Anyway the behavior is strange and I also think it is due to a specific combination of Software on this particular MacPro.
Because of all the features we implemented we tested the Version 6.6 extensivly and with all kinds of Macs currently available and the strangest settings,
but I have not heard of this issue yet.

best regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

[smeedge]

To Howard,
I'm not convinced that your issues are Leopard related. I have been running SilverFast for 5 Years. I never had any issues until the 6.5 version. From that point forward, SF has not performed properly. I have found, in both Tiger and Leopard, that if I don't start SF immediately upon startup, that it will not perform properly. I will get messages indicating a missing scanner, or failure to initialize, or other issues. Even if I do start SF first thing, I know for a fact that SF has compatibility issues with drivers from other software (Colorburst Rip for example), and it will cease to function without a restart of the system. When, in SF, I get a missing scanner message, I have no problem scanning in Photoshop>File>Import>Epson Expression 10000XL. Of course, the whole point of using SF is that it is a better approach than the standard scanner drivers. It is my opinion that SF developers are not doing the work necessary to eliminate the bugs and conflicts that exist with other software; this is supposed to be part of what they do. They have suggested turning off or unplugging vital software and peripherals, but who wants to run Photoshop without a Wacom tablet, or try to print without a RIP. This is unsatisfactory. I like the SF product, and have continued to use it in spite of the bugs, and I believe you need to direct your dismay at LaserSoft, not Apple.

[hdinin]

Thanks Smeedge for your pertinent and generally apt remarks.

However, having used Silverfast at least as long -- actually significantly longer -- I too am familiar with the problems of compatibility that are at the root of this problem of mine. There is no doubt in the past, as with every developer, there is something overlooked, usually small, that constitutes a problem. Silverfast (actually the parent Laser Imaging) has always been particularly sensitive to customer issues, and above the industry norm in responding with subsequent releases that address specific problems.

I have found, invariably, that the issues that define themselves for large numbers of users (the size of the group purely a function of their application of the software and/or their peculiar mix of hardware and software configurations) are to be laid at the feet of Apple and Microsoft. These two companies are no more and no less apt than their smaller counterparts, also developing software, using definitively inadequate resources (Leopard was delayed to get out a product called iPhone -- who knows what got rushed or overlooked as a result in both of those products), to produce mistakes that reverberate among a user base. Assuming the mistake is in a strategic part of the overall design of a system: whether only hardware or only software, or the combination of the two (a problem more confined to Apple, which develops in a "gated" environment, protected by licensing and the patent and trademark, and copyright laws of the United States). If they screw up on some small part of the serial bus, or any major constituent thereof, we all suffer. Even if it takes only a peculiar and rare combination of products in use to cause the problem.

Every piece of equipment and every item of software I use is legal, paid for, licensed, registered, and, ostensibly, designed according to the rules, and therefore should work and play well together.

You will find it's indeed easier to pick on the little guy (Silverfast) than Apple. It's at least less frustrating. Silverfast will give you an answer, even if the first response out of the box is unsatisfactory, they will respond, and if your retort is reasonable and based on verifiable conditions that repeat a problem (or defy their experience with exactly the same configuration, you will get a better response the second time.

I'd say for five years you were lucky. For the most part, I've been lucky for the 19 years I've used Apple Macintosh equipment and software written for it for production purposes, in that every problem ultimately was solved (even if it meant graduating to the next generation of equipment, or waiting for the next software update or upgrade). There's nothing money won't cure.

And I've given up long since on Apple. They're just another giant company that does a great job appearing to give a *********, but really don't until you force them to understand you will mix it up with them in the dirt until they fix what's broken. If it's a defective battery that ignites spontaneously, that's easy. They break their fingers sending a new one as quickly as the express delivery services allow. If it's something like the arcane and complex problems of using Silverfast, Firewire 800, and ancient firmware from third parties, it may take a but longer, or it may simply require you work around it.

Howard

[LSI_Luebker]

Dear smeedge,

I never heard of a problem with "Colorburst Rip" could you please specify excatly what happens ?

Anyway there is still a known issue with certain Plugins from NIK Software where we currently got a workaround for, NIK told us that they will fix this Problem in an upcomming release.

"we discovered a conflict with Photoshop CS3 and SilverFast in combination with NIK Softwares Color Efex Pro.
This problem will result in crashing SilverFast and Photoshop after the endscan. We have investigated this behavior and we are working on a solution together with NIK. For the moment we can give you a workaround for this problem.
You would need to remove the NIK Color Efex Pro folder form your Photoshop CS3 Plugin directory. Just copy it somewhere else. Now you need to create an alias of the .plugin file and drag it back to the Photoshop CS3 plugin folder. Now everything should work again, we will keep you updated about the progress of this issue."

Besides this there are no known conflicts for SilverFast 6.6 and Leopard and as posted earlier we tested it with nearly all possible Mac configurations but if you have discovered something please tell us so we could recreate it in our Testing Center and get it fixed.

best regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

[smeedge]

Thomas,

Since I didn't give a rundown of my system in my last post, let me do that now. I am running a Mac Pro Dual-Core 2.66 Intel (OS 10.5.4) with 7 gigs of ram and a 20" Apple display. It has one 250 Maxtor gig and two 500 gig WD internal drives, one 400 gig Iomega firewire 800 external and one 500 gig WD firewire 800 external drive. I have a Wacom Intuos 3 tablet, Epson 2200 firewire 400 printer, Epson 4000 ethernet printer, Epson 10000xl firewire 400 scanner. I have an X-Rite Pulse photospectrometer which I leave plugged in at all times. There are some speakers and a couple of firewire hubs connected. Software includes Photoshop CS3, ColorBurst RIP, SilverFast, CaptureOne Pro, Fetch, Toast, DiskWarrior, Retrospect, Virus Barrier and Net Barrier, Stuffit, and the usual collection of browsers, word processors, and so on. No games. If I start up my system and immediately start SilverFast it works. If I then start ColorBurst, SilverFast will cease to function, usually with a "No Scanner Present" screen. As I explained in my last post, I can still scan without problem through Photoshop. If I start ColorBurst before SilverFast, SF will not work. If I do a variety of tasks involving other software and then try to start and run SF, it will not work. I can't tell you specifically which other software is also causing problems (it's possible that there is an issue with iTunes) as I just haven't the time to try and figure out each and every quirk, but SilverFast does not play well with ColorBurst. All software is registered and up to date (although I/m still running Toast Titanium 7.1.3).

Regards,

Smeedge

[hdinin]

Smeedge

Thanks for the configuration rundown. It's interesting to me, of course, in that you can use the scanner, which is on the Firewire bus, without having to remove the external hard drives. I note the constraint of having to run Silverfast before booting Colorburst. Under no circumstances can I have a storage device on the Firewire bus of the MacPro (mine is, I believe, a later model: dual quad-core processors, released in February). The scanner (the Nikon, also a FW device) simply will not initialize, either with Nikon drivers (for their software) or with the new SF drivers for the Nikon scanner.

There is a history of odd behavior on the Mac (both towers and laptops) with Intel processors and Leopard using various kinds of peripheral devices on any random port of the serial bus (some people have trouble with cameras, some with audio equipment...) plugged into the USB and FW ports.

In my case, it doesn't matter which end of the Mac Pro I use (ports on both the front and back of the machine). Apparently all the FW ports are on the same bus, and all use the same power. However, a Sonnet expansion card for the PCI-express bus, with additional, individually powered FW800 ports does not solve the problem.

Simple logic dictates that either a great many developers are writing drivers that do not "play nice" with the FW bus talking to storage devices, or Apple has a serious, if arcane and rarely evident, design flaw in that serial bus. A lot of commenters (on other forums, including Apple's) have noted that you'd think a computer, billed as a workstation, with the horsepower inherent in the past few models, and the ability to house TB of storage and manu GB of RAM, would have a more robust and better powered set of serial ports.

It's a kind of subtle disincentive to add peripheral devices for storage... On the other hand, the Apple store (both on-line and brick-and-mortar) sell several different brands of hard drives in various form factors, with various kinds of ports, including FW. And there is Time Machine, which kind of demands an external drive that makes sense.

So who knows? My sense is that Apple is still learning how to exploit the design of the Intel chipset. It seems like each release of Leopard brings new problems to someone. Especially on newer machines.

Howard

[smeedge]

Thomas / Howard,

The problems I'm now having on an Intel/Leopard set-up are the same ones I had on a Power PC/Tiger set-up. The issues began with the older machine, without any hardware changes, when SF went from 6.4x to 6.5 (there was also some issue with the negafix module as I recall, but that was resolved). Now, for example, this morning I started up, ran Thunderbird, Safari, and Photoshop. When I then started SF it initialized, but when I tried to run a prescan I got a screen that says, " An error occurred at the start of the scanning process. Cannot send Command <Set Window>. When I did a restart, and started SF first, it worked. But, if I do some other tasks and come back to SF, chances are it will fail.

Regards,

Smeedge

[LSI_Luebker]

Dear Smeedge,

very strange behavior maybe it is best for you to contact our Technical Support
but I am sure it is an isolated problem as I tested various constalations of Apple Computers and Operting Systems with various Scanners
and the problems with the Nikon Scanners where due to the lag of Intel and Leopard comaptible drivers but wiht SilverFast 6.6.0r1a it works
stable on both PPC and Intel based Macintosh Systems on Leopard. We alos just released SilverFast 6.6.0r2 fot Nikon with further improvements.

best regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

[hdinin]

Smeedge and Tom:

Speaking of constellations of problems, there have been others, and the chief variable is the new Mac Pro. SF (and some other things) worked great on the old dual processor G4 PowerPC tower running Tiger (10.4.11), including running SF 6.5.x

With the Mac Pro, I have been fighting on several fronts. The most compelling issue was the sudden inability to use the Nikon scanner... which is well covered here. Time Machine has not been running properly yet (and I installed the new system in February). Adobe apps would hang or do strange things. A back-up/sync facility called Chronosync suddenly became unreliable, hanging, and keeping me from rebooting or powering down, etc.

I've slowly been re-installing everything, starting with the OS. Ran hardware tests extensively (Apple's, and third parties), and they say everything is fine -- which points to software corruption, permissions problems, and conflicts; in fact the machine ran fine in safe mode, so I removed some start-up installations. The directories of some of the hard drives (there are six at this point, four internal and two outboard) have to be re-built regularly either with fsck or more intensively with Drive Genius 2.0.3 (Micromat and AlSoft still haven't caught up with revisions incorporating new Apple start-up items, which Apple keeps adding with each update of Leopard for their drive repair utilities). Apple disk utility sometimes simply cannot start up properly, spinning and spinning as it tries to poll the bus for devices.

People seem either to have these sorts of problems or they don't. It's all very mysterious.

It's always been necessary with Macintosh, especially with the release of new OS versions (I remember real mayhem with Mac OS 6.something or other), sometimes to rebuild a machine -- wiping the hard drive and starting from scratch, installing everything all over again, one-by-one because of all the bugs, inconsistencies and conflicts between misbehaving add-ons. But that was in the days when things came on mini-floppies. It still took a whole day, but by the end of the day you were done.

Now there are more applications and they're all gigantic, and you must have the versions compatible with the latest version of Leopard...

No, I'm convinced these problems are related to stuff in the OS, particularly deep in the kernel that somehow easily gets hosed during a prolonged work session, and the Intel chipset and other components on the newest motherboards.

As I already pointed out, Apple's not talking.

I myself am thinking of taking up oil painting. Proven 1300 year-old technology. Instant results. Works without power. Independent of environment and weather conditions. Millions of reference works. Supplies at any art store, or grind your own.

Nice fantasy...

I'm eager to try this SF new update. A new release of any kind from Laser Imaging was always good news.

Incidentally, I did manage to finish my project. Scans of about 15 35mm images done full throttle (ended up with 112MB 48-bit files from the Nikon) to accompany 20 digital images, all portraits of my late wife for a memorial service for her this Sunday. It was this (and the deadline) that made all these problems particularly vexing and aggravating... When this stuff works, the results are spectacular (between Leica and Canon EOS 1N images, the Nikon scanner and SF software of course to make it all work). It's getting it to work that's the bear. 22x16 inch prints by the way, from a Epson 4800.

I hope nobody minds a little allusion to actual photography here... ;-)

Howard

[LSI_Luebker]

Dear Howard,

I am glad you finished your project in time!
To be honest I can not confirm your experience with the 2008 MacPro as I did some extensive testing with this Machine Photoshop CS3 and SilverFast and it was running quite stable. I really think that your problmes are connected to some other 3rd party software or that your Leopard installation somehow got corrupted.
If you got any leads regarding your probleme let me know.


best regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

[sharonk868]

Dear Howard,

SilverFast 6.6.0r1a should be working smoothly with all the different Mac models out there as we tested this release extensively before putting it out.
There are some known troubles with certain NIK plugins when running SilverFast from Photoshop. But beside we do not have no problems in Leopard .
Please specify your problem or contact our TechSupport Staff then we can hopefully sort this issue out.


besrt regards,

Thomas Lübker
- LSI Software Support Specialist -

Thanks you for the post.
Hi guys, Im a newbie. Nice to join this forum.