which internal color space?

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calestyo
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which internal color space?

Postby calestyo » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:30 pm

Hi.

With respect to the color spaces....

I mainly watch my scans on digital devices (I print only rarely)...

In the settings I've selected:
Input -> Working Space: ICM
Working Space -> Monitor: ICM
Working Space -> Output: ICM

The profiles are
Input: what I've gained via IT8 calib

But now I'm a bit unsure about Internal...

As far as I understand, my files will have the Input profile attached, but will be written using the Workin Space, right? So if an application doesn't understand the embedded profile, it will use that working space (and interpret it usually as sRGB).

Anyway, if I assume to only use applications that understand different profiles,... what's best for the internal profile?
ECI RGB v2 ICC4 is used very often (AFAIU) and probably similar to Adobe RGB.

But there's ProPhotoRGB / ROMM RGB... which is much larger... should I use that?


AFAIU, ECI RGB has no constant Gamma... but ROMM RGB seems to have 1,8... so should I set the gamme in SilverFast to 1,8 as well?


Thanks,
Chris.

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby LSI_Ketelhohn » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:30 pm

Dear customer,

The "Working Space -> Output:" should be set to RGB unless you want to scan directly for a certain printer.

AdobeRGB is a large color space which should not cause any issues.
Very large color spaces like ProPhoto might cause issues when loaded on devices/software without color management capability.
These often try to display the images as sRGB images.
Which can in some seldom cases cause color issues.

Today all common devices expect a gamma of 2.2.
1,8 is only used on older (Pre OSX 10.5) Macs nowadays.

If you are planning to display the images on a screen/TV/beamer you might want to consider using sRGB.
sRGB is the colorspace most display devices use and causes the fewest issues there.
These images however are not optimal for further use in image editing software.
Editing software often benefits from a large color space.

Kind regards,
Arne Ketelhohn.

calestyo
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Re: which internal color space?

Postby calestyo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:48 pm

LSI_Ketelhohn wrote:The "Working Space -> Output:" should be set to RGB unless you want to scan directly for a certain printer.

Sorry... don't get that... or better said,... I want to understand what's really happening...

First "Working Space -> Output:" ... what's meant with "Output" here? Is it just prints (i.e. what's set with the "Output/Printer" profile)? Or does it also affect any files stored?
And this does NOT have any effect on the IT8 calibration as well, right?

And what exactly means which option?
RGB? Is it that files are passed through "as is" (i.e. with no color management to the printer/stored files?
ICM? Is it pass through but using color management?
CIE-Lab?


Cheers,
Chris.

calestyo
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Re: which internal color space?

Postby calestyo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:19 pm

Oh and when I scan negatives... it's said that the IT8 calibration has no use anyway... but do I explicitly have do disable it (e.g.setting Source -> Internal: <none> or so)?

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby LSI_Ketelhohn » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:03 am

Dear customer,

The Output is your created image.
The setting only affects images created using that option.
The option effects how the calibrated profile is being used.

RGB isthe standard option for an RGB image.
ICM will cause the Printer Profile to be used.
For normal output this should be set to RGB.
The CIE-lab option renders into CIE-lab.

Using NegaFix mode automatically sets the CMS settings correctly.
You do not need to set that manually.

Kind regards,
Arne Ketelhohn.

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby TomRitch » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:09 pm

I have been using Silverfast for a few months but I have been using Macintosh computers since 1984. Before Silverfast I have used color management only to calibrate my monitor. Although only lurking, I have long heard good things about ColorSync. In Silverfast I have used ColorSync for Input -> Working Space, Working Space -> Monitor and Working Space -> Output Color Management. So far my results seem good, yet I realize that with so complex a system, what seems good to a beginner such as myself may be far from optimal.

Please comment on use of Apple's ColorSync with Silverfast.

Can you recommend reference reading where I may learn more about color management? There seems to be much to be learn and reason to learn it, even with Silverfast's automatic adjustment of many parameters to near optimum.

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby LSI_Ketelhohn » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:50 pm

Dear customer,

Like I said "Working Space -> Output" should only be set to Color Sync if you intend to print the image directly.
Otherwise RGB would be correct because it embeds a general ICC profile (e.g. AdobeRGB).

The settings in the CMS Tab are the only ones necessary for a correct color management.
Further settings are not necessary.

If you want to know more about Color Sync you should take a look at the Apple support pages.

Kind regards,
Arne Ketelhohn.

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby degrub » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:14 am

Tom,

Take a look at Ian's tutorials for Silverfast specificallly the ones on configuring.
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/home.htm


Frank

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby TomRitch » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:50 pm

Frank,

Thank you for the pointer to Ian's tutorials. For me even fairly basic concepts of scanning and image editing are new, so I need explanation of what I should do and why, as well as how. Even though Ian's tutorials are a little old, I think their discussion of color management will help me understand what I am doing. I also just discovered the link to download the manual for Silverfast 6. I think it will also help me understand Silverfast 8.


Arne,

A full manual for Silverfast 8, as was available for Silverfast 6, I think would be a big help for me. I am able to use Silverfast with the current documentation, but I feel that I may or may not be using it optimally. My impression is that I go through many steps which have automatic optimization which seems to work well, but then Silverfast allows me to do optional manual optimization. My problem is I have little or no idea of what things like color spaces or gamma, or many other parameters that I do not know enough to name, are or do. I have no idea how to optimize them other than "make the image look good", and I understand that visual judgement is often a poor optimization strategy.

I am not asking for an explanation here. I hope Ian's tutorials and the SIlverfast 6 manual will explain much. I only mean to point out that as Silverfast makes it easy for beginners such as myself to scan, many SIlverfast users will not have the expertise of professionals in image manipulation. To actually use well the power that Silverfast 8 enables, I, and I suspect many others, need a full manual.


Thanks to both of you for the help. I have a lot of reading to do now.

Tom

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby LSI_Ketelhohn » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:47 pm

Dear Tom,

Have you checked our SilverFast Knowledge page?
It might also help you regarding the settings.

kind regards,
Arne Ketelhohn.

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby TomRitch » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:12 pm

Arne,

Yes, the SilverFast Knowledge page is very useful. I found especially informative the very brief yet thorough history of imaging. It helps me understand the ideas behind various tools for imaging, as well as technically how to use them.

Can you recommend a similarly concise review of what color spaces are and why there are different spaces, and also an explanation of "clipping"?

Tom

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Re: which internal color space?

Postby LSI_Ketelhohn » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:10 pm

Dear Tom,

unfortunately we currently do not have a dedicated page about this kind of information.
You might want to try Wikipedia for a start.

Kind regards,
Arne Ketelhohn.


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