Just want general clarifiction

[SilverRon]

I've never felt comfortable with the terms "Internal" and "Host"
Does "Internal" mean Internal to SilverFast, or Photoshop?
Is Photoshop the "host," or is the Mac OS the "Host?"
And I really don't think we should have to search through chapters of the manual to find out that it's never explained.
Does LaserSoft ever do any Interface research/testing?

[President_LSI]

SilverFast CMS Settings

"Host" refers to the software supplying a matching link. Here it is Photoshop. "Internal" refers to the internal working color space. A complex color management with all its possibilities certainly cannot be understood by simple expressions that have to be used to control the software.

With reference to the manual: Expect the new updated SilverFast manual to be ready for download shortly!

[Junebug]

Re: New Silverfast Manual Ready for Download Shortly.
subtitle: Yipee!

Dear Mr. President and Web Type Person

When you put up the new Silverfast Manual could you please date it or give it a version number. (explanation: I have 4 Silverfast CD's. Some of the files on the CD's have different filenames for the same file. Same goes when comparing these to files on the Silverfast Site. It is impossible to figure out which is current.)

Thanks... PS. I have noticed and appreciate your adding a "Version History" to the Silverfast Download section. It really helps.

[SilverRon]

So, once again, I find myself asking (albeit more specifically):
Internal to what?
SilverFast?
Photoshop?
The System?
ColorSync?
The word "Internal" is far too vague. Adding just a few more words in the dialog box (e.g."Internal Color Space" or whatever would CLEARLY define the menu choice) would make the set-up much more clear and far easier.
Macs are supposed to be INTUITIVE, and so, too, should their software be.

[President_LSI]

CMS Settings Explanation

Internal (under Profiles) refers to the Internal Colour Space / recommended: Adobe RGB (1998)

Please note that when you move the mouse over an item you get a short explanation at the very bottom of the prescan.

[President_LSI]

Dear Ron,

you are right. We should have a version (release) date for every new file or manual that we post on the web. We will take care of that.

regards
Karl-Heinz Zahorsky

[LSI_Petruskevicius]

Dear Junebug,

the newest SilverFast Ai manual is online and you will find a date near the link when it was published on web. Sorry about the size - the file contains many images, cause its imaging related (and it didn't compress much)

Regarding the histories and versioning - everyone is right, we are working on it and much improvements are pending.

Liudas

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LSI_Liudas on 2001-10-24 16:08 ]</font>

[SilverRon]

I repeat:
Internal TO what (the operative word here being TO.
Silverfast?
Photoshop?
etc., etc.
I appreciate your prompt input, but you're not answering my question.I understand that it's the Internal Color Space. Is it the internal color space for SilverFast alone or Photoshop, or all of the above, or what? The word internal implies some exclusivity.
Well I'll be doggoned! I've only been using a Mac for 10 years. I never dreamed that the definitions were being displayed at the bottom of the window that's covered/hidden by the window in which I'm working. This is COUNTERINTUITIVE.
I know this sounds like "bashing"/criticism, but you folks have some serious interface inadequacies.

[ianders1]

Ron,

The Internal basically means working space, and it applies to both Silverfast and PhotoShop. It's the working space of the preview, and the working space of the image that's imported into PhotoShop.

They chose the word "Internal" because from a programmer's standpoint, it's the internal color data that the plug-in and PhotoShop are both using as a reference.

If you want your image imported into PhotoShop with a large gamut (range) of colors, use AdobeRGB. If not, you can use sRGB which is a smaller, web-based color working space. And, if you switch to CMYK, you'll automatically switch your working space to whatever CMYK profile you're using.

Mr. President is right, AdobeRGB is generally the best to work with. So if you have chosen AdobeRGB in PhotoShop, set the CMS setting to "Automatic" or to "AdobeRGB" to ensure an accurate preview.

Hope this explains it for you, once and for all - if not, let me know.

-Ian

[SilverRon]

Still can't get a good Preview in SilverFast.
I believe I have set up my ColorSync settings properly, both at the System level & within Photoshop & SilverFast. My SilverFast preview, however, looks very "over-exposed" (far too light and almost "washed out").
These settings worked very well for me under previous versions of SilverFast.
=======================
ColorSync v.3.0.3 settings:
______________________
Profiles for Standard Devices:
Input: EPSON Expression636
Display: Ron's 91TXM 04/01 (the currently calibrated profile from the Monitors Control Panel)
Output: Generic CMYK Profile (My Epson 3000 is being delivered)
Proofer: Generic RGB Profile

Default Profiles for Documents
RGB Default: Bruce RGB (from Bruce Fraser/David Blattner web site)
CMYK Default: Generic CMYK Profile
Gray Default: Generic Gray Profile
Lab Default: Generic Lab Profile

Preferred CMM: Automatic

==========================
Photoshop v.6.0.1 Settings:
_____________________
Working Spaces
RGB: ColorSync RGB - Bruce RGB
CMYK: ColorSync CMYK - Generic CMYK Profile
Gray: ColorSync Gray - Generic Gray Profile
Spot: Dot Gain 20%

Color Management Policies
All are set to "Preserve Embedded Profiles" / "Ask When Opening"

Conversion Options
Engine: Apple ColorSync
Intent: Perceptual

===========================
SilverFast CMS Settings:

Scanner -> Internal ColorSync
Internal -> Scanner ColorSync
Internal -> Output ColorSync

Profiles for ColorSync:

Scanner (Reflective) Epson Expression636
Scanner (Transparent) Epson Expression636 TPU
Internal Ron's 91TXM 04/01
Output/Printer Generic CMYK Profile
Rendering Intent Perceptual

Embed ICC profile is checked (resulting in embedded Generic CMYK profile)

[ilyons]

Some of your choices are VERY ????????? Especially the conversion to CMYK for output to Photoshop. You haven't indicated anywhere that this is your preference but it could account for poor images in Photoshop

=======================
ColorSync v.3.0.3 settings:
______________________
Profiles for Standard Devices:
Input: EPSON Expression636
Display: Ron's 91TXM 04/01 (the currently calibrated profile from the Monitors Control Panel)
Output: Generic CMYK Profile (My Epson 3000 is being delivered)
Proofer: Generic RGB Profile

Default Profiles for Documents
RGB Default: Bruce RGB (from Bruce Fraser/David Blattner web site)
CMYK Default: Generic CMYK Profile
Gray Default: Generic Gray Profile
Lab Default: Generic Lab Profile

Preferred CMM: Automatic

Other than the monitor profile little else is important and rarely if ever used. OS X makes better use of these additional options.

==========================
Photoshop v.6.0.1 Settings:
_____________________
Working Spaces
RGB: ColorSync RGB - Bruce RGB
CMYK: ColorSync CMYK - Generic CMYK Profile
Gray: ColorSync Gray - Generic Gray Profile
Spot: Dot Gain 20%

Color Management Policies
All are set to "Preserve Embedded Profiles" / "Ask When Opening"

Conversion Options
Engine: Apple ColorSync
Intent: Perceptual

Change CMM to Adobe ACE - the ColorSync engine isn't anywhere near as accurate.

You might wish to consider changing Intent to Relative Colorimetric as this is Photoshops default and preferred Intent.

===========================
SilverFast CMS Settings:

Scanner -> Internal ColorSync
Internal -> Scanner ColorSync
Internal -> Output ColorSync

Profiles for ColorSync:

Scanner (Reflective) Epson Expression636
Scanner (Transparent) Epson Expression636 TPU
Internal Ron's 91TXM 04/01
Output/Printer Generic CMYK Profile
Rendering Intent Perceptual

Embed ICC profile is checked (resulting in embedded Generic CMYK profile)

Change Internal->Scanner to Automatic this ensures your preview is synchronised with Photoshop.

Unless you output directly to CMYK change Internal->Output to RGB



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ilyons on 2001-10-29 23:28 ]</font>

[ianders1]

Another thing that you may not be doing is enabling the CMYK preview, if you are scanning directly into CMYK. On the densitometer (when set to CMYK scan) you'll see a little striped bar above the letters C,M,Y, and K. Click on this and it will become become brighter. Once you've done that, and made the changes the other Ian suggests, you should have an accurate CMYK preview. If you already know this or scan in RGB, sorry.

-Ian

[SilverRon]

In the first place, my SilverFast software doesn't have an Internal->Scanner setting. It does, however, have a Scanner-> Internal setting. BUT: THERE IS NO "AUTOMATIC" SETTING available in the pop-up menu! The choices are:
NONE,
ColorSync, and
Calibration (Calibration is GRAYED OUT/ unavailable.)
When I changed the Internal-> Monitor setting to "Automatic" I get the usual vague warning: "To use this function successfully, be sure to synchronize your Internal RGB Profile with the host's one!
OK: I get it - "Internal" means "Internal to SilverFast AND Photoshop, but I am so sick & tired of reading the word "internal." It's too vague, and your programmers use it to mean too many things.
I wish I could send you a screen capture to show you how "out-of-whack" the color is in my SilverFast preview window. This is just plain stupid... it shouldn't take this much work to get a decent scan preview.

[ilyons]

Ron,


Try reading the following:

http://www.rgbnet.co.uk/ilyons/sf5-negafix/sf5_cms.htm

Example 5 is the one you should be aiming for.

On 2001-10-31 04:54, SilverRon wrote:
In the first place, my SilverFast software doesn't have an Internal->Scanner setting. It does, however, have a Scanner-> Internal setting. BUT: THERE IS NO "AUTOMATIC" SETTING available in the pop-up menu! The choices are:
NONE,
ColorSync, and
Calibration (Calibration is GRAYED OUT/ unavailable.)

It was YOUR term - I simply copied across what you showed in your list. If I can't see what you're looking at how can I ????

When I changed the Internal-> Monitor setting to "Automatic" I get the usual vague warning: "To use this function successfully, be sure to synchronize your Internal RGB Profile with the host's one!
OK: I get it - "Internal" means "Internal to SilverFast AND Photoshop, but I am so sick & tired of reading the word "internal." It's too vague, and your programmers use it to mean too many things.

That's the one - change it to Automatic. This enables SilverFast to synchronise the dislpay preview with "your" Photoshop working space. However, if you have bad monitor profile the display may well not be accurate.

I wish I could send you a screen capture to show you how "out-of-whack" the color is in my SilverFast preview window. This is just plain stupid... it shouldn't take this much work to get a decent scan preview.

Unless you change your SilverFast settings awas from the garbage you had above you will get garbage for a preview. You were previewing using a CMYK soft proof profile. Try the settings I show in Example 5 of the Tutorial. If the display is still bad you have a bad monitor profile!


Ian L



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ilyons on 2001-10-31 11:26 ]</font>

[SilverRon]

I stand corrected. I apologize. I typed Internal-> Scanner where I SHOULD have typed Internal-> Monitor.
I'm currently downloading the new manual. A problem in the past has been that the manual seemed to be one version behind Photoshop. Will read your recommended article. Had no idea that the solution would be in a document about software I don't own.
My "garbage" setting was due to the fact that I took Internal->Output to mean intended PRINTED output. Now I understand that it means Output to the Host Application.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SilverRon on 2001-10-31 18:39 ]</font>