V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

flatbed scanners for Epson

newindustar
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V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Sun May 03, 2009 12:07 am

Get some huge ICE Lite artifacts, seems to be in highlights, does not happen with quality ICE, happenes in HDR or regular, color management on or off. Is this a hardware issue that many V700 have. I have seen other posts with the same huge mess. It renders the image unuseable when it happens. It can occur on one frame and not affect the next one from the same roll.

It is not Kodachrome, it is Konica Professional 400 neg 120.
The problem with Quality ICE is color edge transition artifacts, small but pretty bad as well, it also softens too much.

What is happeneing?

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby President_LSI » Sun May 03, 2009 8:02 pm

Dear SilverFast User,

ICE is a KODAK (former ASF) Technology, which has its general limitations and is above all fairly slow. That is the reason we have developed our own dust and scratch removal, which is iSRD (infrared Smart removal of Defects). Unfortunately, for the time being, we have to use the ICE-technology, due to license agreement issues. Of course, we are thinking of a solution to all these ICE related problems. We will inform all SilverFast Epson-scanner users as soon as we come close to releasing a solution.

best regards

Karl-Heinz Zahorsky
President & CEO
LaserSoft Imaging AG

newindustar
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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Mon May 04, 2009 5:29 pm

Not Kodachrome or B/W.

Lite ICE is better with V700 because it is less softening and is less erosive on color transition edges than Quality ICE and does not introduce many small artifacts. Lite ICE however can produce (sometimes) huge artifacts with V700, I am not sure about other scanners. This happens to others as well. It can occur with Epsonscan or Silverfast with the same part of the same image so it must be hardware or how these two softwares talk to the V700 hardware.

Quality ICE is nearly unusable due to artifacting on edges.

Epson 4870 single ICE setting is almost just right some still some minor edge artifacts.

I tried to use SRD but it impossible to know if I was ruining good parts of the image elsewhere in the image while I was zoomed in on the dirt. It seemed when it was high enough to remoce dirt out of say a sky it would also ruin valid image data. Perhaps I need to learn how to use it better but I gave it a very good try. At lease with ICE it does not usually destroy image data, its big issue is artifacts.

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby LSI_Heidorn » Tue May 05, 2009 4:21 pm

Dear newindustar,
as you suspect, it is a problem of the combination Hardware + ICE which both approaches ( EPSON Scan and SilverFast ) have to use due to legal reasons.

So there is nothing we can do right now but as our CEO mentioned in the last post, we may find a way to improve the situation :-)

best regards,

Nils Heidorn

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Tue May 05, 2009 5:25 pm

Ok I'll accept that.

I do have a question however.

Do all Epson scanners with dual ICE capability have the Huge ICE artifact (occasionally) when using 'Light ICE", or is it V700/750 specific?

Also how about the following I posted:

"I tried to use SRD but it impossible to know if I was ruining good parts of the image elsewhere in the image while I was zoomed in on the dirt. It seemed when it was high enough to remoce dirt out of say a sky it would also ruin valid image data."

Do you have suggestions?

Thanks

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby LSI_Heidorn » Wed May 06, 2009 12:46 pm

Dear newindustar,
The behaviour of the other scanners vary quite a bit as the Quality / characteristics of their IR scan are very different and as they are bundled with different versions of ICE as far as i can see.
So the strengths and weaknesses will be different !

As for SRD:
Yes, SRD is "only" Software based without the aid of the IR channel.
If you feel that you need different parameters e.g. for the sky and for the motive, you can ( in the Ai versions ) draw a layer around the region you care for first and set the appropraite parameters, then add a new layer, create a new mask for another part of the image and set different parameters there !

This way you can get the best out of the image with the software-only approach...

best regards,

Nils Heidorn

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Wed May 06, 2009 5:23 pm

I must point out I was very happy when I discovered Lite ICE, it gave good cleaning without the artifacts generated by the higher ICE. I really felt it was the solution to my issues. I made the attempt to point out that the really big artifacts with Lite only happened occasionally on specific areas of a particulat frame and only with V700. I have not had a chance to do enough scanning on Lite to get a feeling of how often the problem occurs. The film was Konica Professional 400 in 120. Is there anything about that film?

I might find the problem is so infrequent it is a non-issue. It is quite a shock when you first see it, it is so extreme. I did find other people on the web showing such examples with V700.

I was told by another software vendor ICE was not in hardware. If this is correct why cannot 4870 have two ICE choices?

Re SRD I do something similar in PS for example select skys seperately for sharpening or noise reduction so i see your point. I''ll try masking at some point
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Lite ICE artifact
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LSI_Heidorn
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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby LSI_Heidorn » Fri May 08, 2009 4:32 pm

Dear newindustar,
i have to agree that is a very ugly artifact !

Did you ever ask EPSON about that ?
And did you find other users with the same problem ?

Greetings,

Nils Heidorn

newindustar
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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Mon May 25, 2009 3:22 am

I did not realize I had a reply and I have been away for a bit. My ICE saga continues nonetheless. I have to report those huge artifacts have only happened to me using Konica Professional 400 in 220. I don't have it in any other format. Could it have to do with the thinner base of a 220 film? I don't have any other 220 at the moment. I don't fully understand where ICE is hardware and where software but EpsonScan of Silverfast both have the same issue with that film on Lite ICE V700. v**s**n does not, I have to admit it points to a driver issue.

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby LSI_Heidorn » Tue May 26, 2009 7:43 am

Dear newindustar,
as i said before, if SilverFast and EPSON Scan have the same problem, then it seems to be located inside the ICE Libraries ( *not* the driver, this is different ).
As those ICE Libraries are made by ASF/Kodak fpr EPSON i fear we can not help in this regard :-(

Greetings,

Nils Heidorn

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby newindustar » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:39 pm

I now have to contradict myself. Reala and Kodak Ektachrome 200 are added to the list of films where I have seen this.

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Re: V700 Extreme ICE Lite artifacts

Postby LSI_Heidorn » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:22 am

Dear newindustar,
thanks for the additional info !

Greetings,

Nils Heidorn


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